Religious Beefs
There are way too many religions in the world today. It must have been so simple way back in the Adam and Eve days. Now there are thousands (36,000 I think I read somewhere)of Christian religions and including all the other faiths in the world there must be well over 100,000 religions. What I don't understand is that most of them are worshipping the same God but with a different name. And if they are not worshipping a God who are they worshipping? And if it is some persons writing then it is a man made religion and they are following one mans opinion. And they get tax breaks because of it!! Hmm...maybe they aren't so dumb. First of all they convince millions of people to give them money and its tax free (well at least in Canada it is). Not a bad gig if you can get it.
When something goes bad it is not the work of God. Really? Then that is saying that God is not all knowing and doesn't lead your life like you think. Most good Christians would say that it is part of His master plan for you. So is with you or not? So then I ask...when there are atrocities all over the world, who's fault is it? Why can't God stop it? And before you say it is part of His plan that we don't understand, tell me again why He is considered a God of Love? Does having a bunch of people killed by a bomb, in an earthquake, hurricane, war sound like there is a lot of love? Can he stop it? Can he change the way people think? According to the Bible he can...if he wanted. Remember the story of the Tower of Babel? He managed to change all the "tongues" of the people so they didn't understand each other so they couldn't build the tower. So He can change minds if he wanted. Of course He would actually have to "be here" to do it. Must be part of His master plan.
Only two beefs for today...need to save some for another day. :-)
11 comments:
What? No comments on this one yet? Perhaps it is too contentious of a subject. Do you really want to know the answers to these questions? Or is your mind already made up? Don't make the mistake of looking at religious organizations to see and understand about God.
I start by looking at what I know to be true about human nature.
1. People must be taught morals and values, they are not born knowing them. (unlike animals who have natural instinct to guide them).
2. Even though people are taught morals and values, that is no guarantee that they will use them.
3. Some are not taught morals and values that are not uplifting to the good of all man, but are supportive of greed, power, and personal gain.
Using the writings that claim to reveal the character of God, who He is, what He is like, and what He is not like, (scripture) says in Genesis 1:26 *Then God said, "Let us make human kind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves..." This in itself is an exersize of choice. Therefore since human beings were created in the likeness of God, they were created with the freedom of choice. If God overpowered human beings with *His* own will, then he would be removing their freedom of choice. Those people who say that God works in their lives, that God controls, suggests, or prods them in any direction will also tell you that they have *chosen* to follow God. Choice. They made a choice.
Then it naturally follows that people can also choose to ignore the existance of God. To explain him away with perceived contradictions. The truth is that you will never get any closer to the answer for your questions until you *allow* yourself the possibility that just maybe there is something that exists beyond what we can see and touch. And just like it takes years of study to understand physics, chemistry or micro biology, it takes years of study to understand or even to be able to make an educated decision on whether or not God exists. Don't you first have to study the evidence? On both sides, not just one side (that being evolution). Don't rely on man to answer your questions, research it for yourself. Read the bible yourself, then compare it to known world history, compare it to the know evolution of *knowlege* in the modern world. Then make a decision. You may find that the Hebrews (or Jews as they are now known) had a knowledge of medical and scientific things that *far* surpassed that of others living around and near them during their time and that knowlege was given to them by their "God". You may also find that the history recorded in those pages matches the secular history as recorded by historians, archeologists and anthropologists. There are many, many more facts in this book that are relevant to our contemporary world.
I challenge you to do the study. Independant of any *religious* organization or anyone in your family. Just do it for yourself, so that you can rest easy with your *choice* whatever it may be. Start with the book of Genesis, then read the book of John. Then, whatever you feel like reading next.
In the utmost kindness and friendship,
Kim
I've been labelled before as being an "agnostic"...or it it being "agnostic". Either way I'm sure you know what that means. Not having really any religious upbringing I can only look at things that I observe. I have actually tried reading the Bible but every question I had didn't have an answer or was given the "faith" spiel. So yes I gave up. Why? I was really trying to understand why people believed in this imaginary guy. Obviously, people of Faith take him as being tangible but not in a physical sense. While reading there were a number of passages I read that to me were very disturbing and quite contrary to what I was told. I was told of this God who LOVES his people yet commands armies to go to war. This is the same guy who can wipe the people off the earth and can change peoples minds on a whim but can't stop any atrocities in the world that are totally contradictory to what I've been told he is about.
You are right in that I shouldn't rely on people to teach me about the bible as I can see that is why there are so many different religions as everyone has a different opinion. You are also right in that morals are taught, not a natural instinct. That being said I know there are many people that are not religious that have very good morals and likewise there are many Christians that have no morals except on Sunday.
I am not really looking for the answers as I don't believe they can be answered. I usually get these beefs when the "religion card" is thrown to justify something that doesn't make any sense to me. Bravus touched on something and it sort of put me in an anti-religion mood.
Thank you Kim for the advice you gave me. It is very thoughtful of you. If I ever change my mind on religion I will take your advice into consideration. But I have to ask you one question: If I were to look for God by reading his teachings, which Bible is the correct one that I should be reading?
I had a really interesting conversation today with a friend and colleague who is a Christian but with a strong Buddhist influence. He was saying that a lot of what Jesus talked about directly, and a lot of the early church, was much closer to an Eastern perspective on gaining understanding and on looking to the natural world as a source of revelation. In about the 4th century AD the Christian church linked up with the Roman empire and became much more about getting and keeping power. The notion of following 'the books and only the books' largely came out of that movement.
It's an interesting perspective, but it doesn't help much with answering your questions. As (I hope) you know, I have a lot of the same questions, and acknowledge that they're real, important questions with no easy answers. Three quick points:
1. The Christian tradition includes a devil as well as a God, and some of the malice and atrocity in the world, particularly where it's human-caused rather than due to natural disasters, should be ascribed to the devil. Christians don't talk about him so much these days, but their world view only makes sense with both God and Satan. It still doesn't explain why God doesn't step in to stop Satan, but Kim talked well about the issue of free choice: which is a hard one.
2. I see God as being revealed in a number of ways to people, not just through the Bible - through nature, through other people, through prayer and the Holy Spirit influencing us. It's even possible that the Bible writers got things wrong, or were influenced by their own time and culture, and that other revelations of God will help show us some of those errors (very few Christians would agree with me on this!) This is my response when you say 'well, you're just picking and choosing from the Bible' - yeah, I guess I am, but there's some method to the madness!
3. You act as though the fact that there are many churches is a bad thing, and I don't think it's necesarily so. People are different, and have different circumstances and different needs, so it makes sense to have different churches. The only time it becomes a (logical) problem is when every one of the many claims that it's the only right one and all the others are wrong! I wish they'd get over that immature habit! One of my favourite quotes is "Trust those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it" (Andre Gide).
And finally, as to what Bible you read - my post about the Apocrypha aside, the Christian Bible is pretty much fixed and stable, and has been virtually since the 4th century. There are lots of different translations, but if the translation is any good they should all say the same things, just in different words. Problems arise where people have locked in to particular interpretations of particular words to buttress their doctrines, and then find that those specific words aren't used in other translations.
And finallyfinally, it's possible - indeed likely - for us as humans to decide what we think and believe first, then go out looking for the evidence to support that belief (and suppressing the evidence that challenges it). Atheists will look to the world around them and to human relations for evidence, Christians will look to the Bible. But that's getting it exactly backward: we need to go to the world, and to the Bible, to hear what they have to tell us, not to support our own preconceptions... and that ain't easy.
And one more really quick one: don't necessarily default to assuming that 'religion = Christianity'. It could be that no religious tradition is right for you, but it might also be that something like Zen Buddhism that makes completely different claims might be worth looking into. I do believe a spiritual dimension in life is important, but I also really do understand your frustrations with mainstream western Christianity... and share a lot of them.
well here we are again - hey Lorne...lol
I could try to convince you that God is real and that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that one day we will all face a God that will hold us accountable for our lives - but im sure youve heard it .
So the only thing i can do is try to show you from another perspective. - As a parent.
You see i always see God more clearly when i see him as a parent and then i compare myself to my children.
Do you Love your children? Absolutly!
Would you do anything for them? Would you die for them?
Im betting you probably would. God is the same way.
But the same way that we love our children - God loves us. Do you lock your children away in a room and never let them leave and tell them that its "to dangerous" to go out? Of course not- I would think you would even consider that cruel. Sometimes i wish i could , but i know i cant. You see if i do that then they wont grow. They wont learn how to love unconditionally, build character, develop thier many different unique skills, know the difference between right and wrong, learn how to work towards different goals with different people with different thoughts ect..
But at the same time when you let them go in the world you know they face a multitude of pain And joy.
You love them deeply but your still going to let them get thier hearts broken, your going to let them get thier drivers licence even tho they might get in an accident and be seriously injured or die. You are still going to see them go thru the heartaches of life like losing someone to sudden death, losing a job, fighting with a best friend, having a crime committed against them - Dispite all this you are still going to let them do it. WHY ? because you hate them? we both know its the opposite. Its because we love them , we want them to explore life and live it fully.
We want them to grasp life and live it but we also prepare them for it befor we ever even think of sending them to the store!!
We spend a great deal of time guiding them and showing them right form wrong . We instruct them on all things including finance, crime , love, hate,skills and wisdom. We share past history experiences and stories of old.- Things weve learned and seen.
But one day Our children are going to be ready for thier own adventure and they will go. When they do - it is entirely up to them if they follow all of our loving advice. They could choose the road of less pain and more love or they could choose another way. I cant make them do it . When they were young i could "change thier thoughts - or make them do it" - but now they are older and they INSIST on trying it thier way.
They want to know for themselves that its wrong or bad or dangerous. Do i want it that way? NO!! I would beg my kids not to try drugs - but they still might. At the end of the day - even tho they know the difference they are free to choose.
And if they continue to go down a certain path ,I will be standing there warning them of the bad affects down the road. They are free to choose to listen or not. But the long term damage will still come and i cant stop the effects of it even if i wanted to. And if I did stop it , how would the next person see it was wrong?
If i had a house full of children and i left them for a time , and returned to find them all drinking , fighting , doing drugs, stealing - everything !! So my heart breaks and i beg them to stop and i try to guild them and teach them - They say "go away , we dont need you - we dont want you. We are having fun and its our life"
So heartbroken i would go away for a time and try again later.
When i return i find the house has burned down , some have sickness, some are dead or seriously injured,some have committed suicide ,- The place is a 'hell'.
Do i love them?? YES!!! did I try to stop it?? YES!!! but i tried to stop it - but it is a choice.
What about the children who left that house and came to my house and lived with me, following my rules and doing what i wanted?? How do you think they will end up?
You see - try seeing that on a 6.5 billion children level.
God could have stopped those planes from crashing into the buildings on 9/11 - but he didnt.
And there is a whole bunch of horrible things that are predicted to happen in the future and hes not going to stop that either. Hes warning us and warning us that its going to happen - Its up to us if we CHOOSE to listen.
We dont know all the reasons why - But ask yourself... have you ever done something that your kids couldnt seem to understand and didnt like - but you did it anyway?? Like moving to another house. Your children might not like it but YOU see the bigger picture - they have to trust you that your making those descions based on love and what you KNOW is the right thing . Right?
something to think about
ken
WOW. You can always tell a friend...even when you don't see them as much as you want you know they are out there behind you. Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I have taken what you have said and tried to make sense of it.
Kim,
I don't want to admit it but you are probably right to challenge me to understand God. I would if I could convince myself that this God that everyone worships is really the...being or force...that started it all. The problem I have is that history and archaeology have shown that there was life before God was even known. Like Bravus said maybe they got things wrong. There are many passages in the Bible that contradict each other and others that tell of the same story but the facts are different. That tells me that the Bible was written by man, which of course it was but if it was inspired by God or Jesus, why are there mistakes when God and Jesus was "perfect". Maybe it isn't God that I want to find...maybe it is something or someone else.
David,
I really like your perspective on religion and I appreciate that you have a similar point of view on religion. However I also appreciate that you were brought up in a religious home and respect that fact that you do believe in God, but still have questions. Interesting comment that your friend had about the tying of the church and the Roman Empire. The beginning of the church and what the church is to me is really a control mechanism. I've suggested to Dawn that the church was there just to provide the fear factor in control of the people. Unfortunately I still feel that way. Religion is big business and the more fear, the more money that comes in. Does that mean the church doesn't do some good in the world? Of course it does but it sort of reminds me of an MLM.
Ken,
It took me a while to figure out where you were going with your comment but I think I see what you were saying. The difference between me and my children and God and his children is that I cannot control their minds like God can control his children's minds. I can mold their minds to be good and do good but I don't have the power that God claims to have. But I have a question about one of the things you said. You said God is warning and warning us...about what? How does letting bad things happen in the world warn us or make us believe in him? I fail to see the love in that.
One more thing I would like to say to you is for the many times I am and have been told in the past that I need to study the Bible and make up my mind about religion and God, so too should you look at other views about the Bible, God, and Religion. And to start your journey toward a better understanding of religion here are a few sites that I have looked over. If anything it might make you understand or even reinforce your belief
http://members.aol.com/JAlw/joseph_alward.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/2347/f1.html
Yep, that's a good point: those who tell critics of the Bible to check out teh Bible for themselves ought to be willing to check out critiques of the Bible for themselves, with an open mind.
And I still think limiting it to Christian/non-Christian is too narrow: all of us ought to at least understand Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam... at least the other major religions. And know something about animism and other indigenous belief systems too. I'd go so far as to claim that (a) one is not really an educated person (I totally include myself in this) and (b) one can't really make an informed decision about Christianity without that level of background knowledge.
I agree David. I would be willing to bet there are less than 1% that have even tried to look at another type or religious beliefs because you generally are taught by your parents as to what you should know. I haven't even thought about looking at some of those religions that you speak of. However, I am skeptical about a lot of them because they are known to be man made, not God made. Doesn't mean they are bad but most religions have a God, and correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it the same God, different name?
The God of Christianity and Judaism has a name. His name is JHVH (these are the english letters that translate from the Tetragramaten), He is also called Ehyer Asher Ehyer (Hebrew) or "I AM that I AM". If the God of other religions have the same name, then it is the same God.
Anyway,
I wanted you to know Lorne that I was raised a Catholic, couldn't buy into the theology and left it all behind. Didn't see a need for God in my life, wasn't even sure if he was real. But, in '95 when Kevin and I moved to Calgary, we experienced a terrible low in our lives. Our marriage was crumbling, our finances gone, no jobs and we were homeless, living in his parents camper van, which we had to beg for, my health was failing. I had to admit that I had screwed up my life and was facing the loss of everything I had ever loved. Out of desperation, I prayed to the *God* that I had been taught about as a kid. I asked that *if * He was real, would he take over my life and make something out of the mess I had made.
Time went on and I had forgotten about that prayer, however, *someone* had not. After a series of *coincidences* that kept bringing reading material, and believers my way, I decided I would give *God* a thorough investigation. I talked to *God* again and told him that I would research this thing and find out if he was real, and who he really was.
It has taken 10 years of study and investigation to get to today, and I can honestly say, without a doubt in my mind that God is real. He has proven this in the changes he has made in me, and in the journey he took me on when I agreed to give him a chance to prove his existance.
Where do you start? Start by talking to God, asking that if he really exists, could he show you how and who He is. If you want to know what version of the Bible to read, ask Him. Then head out to the library and check out their selection...rather than buying. For my 25 cents, I found the character of God revealed in the Jewish Torah, the first 5 books of the bible. Look for a translation that closely follows the original Torah. Then set aside all your pre-concieved notions about science and just read. Science is God's tool and it can be used to explain the creation of the world and all that lives in it, once you understand how the Hebrew language works, what its idioms are, and what certain phrases actually mean. Just like the expression "Give me five" is understood by you and me, it is not understood by someone with english as a second language. Well, phrases in the Bible are the same way, this is also the reason why there are so many translations, and so many denominations. But that is a topic for another discussion.
Back to research, any time a person embarks on research, it is generally believed that the documents that were written closest to the event will be the most accurate. The roots of *Christianity* , are Judaism, therefore following what we just said, original Jewish documents will be the most accurate. This is where I would start. I think I will stop there. But please, if you have more questions, ask me. I would love to be able to share my 10 years worth of research : )
Wow, quite the discussion going on here! I agree with the the comment that if you want to know the truth about religion you need to look some of hte major ones and then make some decisions. It's amazing the similarites or differences you can find depending on the view you take. Lorne, you mentioned that archeology( spelling) and anthropology have placed other belief systems before the "existence" of God. This is primarily on physical evidence and doesn't bring into factor that much of hsitory is lost in oral tradition. Thus the "God" that we know that was brought to us by the Hebrews (Jews) could ahve pre-existed before the physical evidences that we have. All that aside I feel that all religions are flawed to some degree but I also feel a need for a faith or belief system. Of all the diferenet "theisms" I chose monotheism and the God of the Hebrews. Why? Because the hebrews still exist. After thousands of years and most of those years being amrginalized and bounced arround from one country to the next they still exist. Some of those cultures that pre-date the idea of "God" don't exist anymore. So I ask myself
"Does the continual existence of the Jews have anything to do with their faith and their God?" Quite possibly. If that 's the case then I think I'll try their God. I ahve nothing to lose and everything to gain. So Lorne, that's just another perspective.
Post a Comment